Ralph’s Shoe Service in the Southdale Center Mall is in the news this week:
KARE 11, Dec. 15: Southdale’s oldest tenant Ralph’s Shoe Service says he’s being forced out- Southdale Center Facebook page response
- MSP Business Journal, Dec. 15: Southdale may lose its oldest tenant
- KSTP, Dec. 15: Southdale Tenant Says Renovation is Forcing Him Out after 55 Years
- StarTribune, Dec. 15: A mall pioneer nears the end
- Save Ralph’s Shoe Service Facebook page
- KARE 11, Dec. 16: Update: support builds for oldest Southdale tenant Ralph’s Shoe Service, mall not budging
If you check out the facebook pages for Save Ralph’s Shoe Service, Southdale, and Simon’s, you’ll find that people are furious about Simon’s treatment of this small business that has been in the mall almost since the beginning. Almost everyone is stating that they will boycott shopping at Southdale, as well as any Simon mall, as well as advising other businesses at the mall about what they’re doing. Also, the story has been covered in Indianapolis, and people are working to spread the word with nationwide media.
As I understand it from the Star Tribune story, until approximately one week ago Ralph’s was advised that Simon’s would assist with their relocation but then they were told they were on their own, three weeks before the end of their lease. It appears that Simon’s is trying to force them out. It’s shabby treatment of a longtime small business in Southdale.
I started a petition at CHANGE.ORG – these get national attention and results! PLEASE everyone – visit this page…
http://www.change.org/petitions/simon-property-group-save-ralphs-shoe-service#
Thanks for commenting, Susan.
What, if anything, do you think the City of Edina should do?
Do NOT give Simon Malls any grant money or help. Southdale is a historical place. They are killing it by their greedy corporate policies. Help the small businesses like Ralph’s that stayed in Edina through thick and thin.
Glad to have you chiming in, Caerhl.
I’ve not spoken to them but I imagine that the Edina Council members and staff feel as badly for Ralph’s owner Bill Roase as you and many others do.
I can’t speak for the City of Edina (I’m a contractor/consultant on this engagement project) but I also think it’s safe to say that the City wants Simon Group to succeed with Southdale because of the long term benefits to the local economy, including the citizens who work there, and the taxes that it generates that benefit the whole community.
So there’s a conundrum for policy makers, ie, the tension between that which benefits one small and much-loved business vs. that which could benefit the many (job seekers and citizens/taxpayers).
One hopes that a middle ground can be found.
Southdale said they would help him move and then withdrew the offer. I was out there last week and Ralph’s still had not heard anything different. That is really bad business on Southdale and Simon Malls part. I also work in Engineering services. Ralph’s only mistake was not getting that promise in writing. One would hope that a handshake and a promise means what it used to but apparently for Southdale and Simon Malls it does not. If this was a contract item for a relocation, Ralph’s could have sued them for breaking the contract. Southdale and Simon Malls have bad PR going all over the country now thanks to Facebook. Helping one little business could have made them the hero rather than the bullying zero. It is a shame.
Caerhl, if you were on the City Council, what would you do at this point?
Griff, if I was on the city council first I would contact Ralph’s to find out the whole story. Southdale/Simon Mall’s won’t comment on it. They seem happy to have them move out on Christmas. I would ask the other council members if they knew of a property near southdale that was for rent and had an honorable landlord. The community is already poised to help Ralph’s (a piano moving company will help them move the very heavy equipment for free). Where would the city council like to have a business like Ralph’s that has been in Edina for 55 years? The Galleria? At 66th and Xerxes? How about off Penn and 66th. It would be nice to see the city council step in and help Ralph’s. Don’t wring your hands and ask for suggestions, do something to help. First, call them.
Caerhl,
Let me summarize your suggestions for the Council/city staff who will be reading this blog comment thread:
* Contact Ralph’s to get their side of the story
* If Ralph’s does have to move, seek to keep them in Edina by helping them find available commercial locations that might be suitable
* Find ways to support the community’s efforts to help Ralph’s
Did I get that right?
Yes! Any small business that has weathered 55 years should be a star in Edina of how to be successful!
Great idea, did any of this actually happen???
Sarah, see the comments below on Ralph’s move to Richfield.
Hi Griff,
While I understand the long-term economic implications the success of Southdale has for the city of Edina, I hope the city and it’s council members understand, people like myself, who have been loyal patrons to the mall, and live in other areas of the Twin Cities are disgusted. I urge the city and its council to step in and try to have some sort of mediation between the two parties.
I personally think if the Simon corporation wants to have a new food court, they should personally pay for the relocation of tenants they will be displacing. If this matter is not resolved, and Ralph’s leaves the mall I will no longer shop at Southdale, period. I know that many people feel the same way, and therefore urge the city to really look at this issue, as is it sure to have some financial implications on not only Ralph’s but also all of the tenants of Southdale who will lose my business and so many others!
Hi Katie, good to have your input as someone who shops at Southdale but doesn’t live in Edina.
I imagine that some of the other retail tenants of Southdale are more than a little anxious about this, both as fellow retailers concerned about the Roase family as well as any impact this might have on their businesses.
How would you respond to this person who wrote on this Facebook Wall comment thread on Sunday:
Hi Griff,
I am another shopper that routinely travels from Woodbury to Southdale to shop. I love the stores in that area, but I won’t be heading over there anytime soon based on this situation alone.
I wanted to respond to the Facebook comment. My answer is those stores should move if they don’t like the fact that their landlord has caused a boycott. Simon won’t get any rent if stores leave because of decreased business, and as noted above, there is good retail space in the area. It would behoove local landlords with space that’s available to begin courting these businesses – give them a reason to go! Just like consumers vote with their feet, so should retailers who are tired of being bullied by Simon.
Hi Becky,
Thanks for your well-reasoned comment about a boycott. It certainly illustrates how the law of supply and demand would work in the long run.
I think the Facebook commenter is probably more concerned about the short term impact. Mall tenants have long leases but the Xmas shopping season is relatively short and many (most?) depend heavily on Xmas sales. Indirectly punishing them now in hopes that it’ll change Simon in a year or two seemed to her to be unfair.
Griff, I believe that I can speak for just about everyone when I say that our goal is to get Simon to change their tune by this Saturday, Ralph’s last day- NOT in a year or two.
If this boycott continues to grow, it will affect Simon eventually, when Southdale’s vacancy rates steadily increase as leases expire. I predict that many frustrated, struggling business owners will jump ship as Southdale starts looking like a ghost town.
I’m a small business owner, so this story really struck a nerve with me. Shame on Southdale, this is purely disgusting behavior. If they can afford to put in a new food court, they can afford to move Ralph’s Shoe Service. Enough said.
Thanks for chiming in, Teresa.
I’ve sent you an email, requesting to know your last name so I can add that to your comment. Our guidelines require it.
Update: I’ve added Teresa’s last name. Thx, Teresa!
I would liken this situation to a bully and his victim. Well, City of Edina, this is happening on YOUR playground. What say you?
The city council needs to grasp just how many people are boycotting Southdale. Perhaps if I rephrase that sentence as “realize the major loss of tax revenue for Edina” it will perk up a few ears. No one has even mentioned the collateral damage to the other business in the mall.
What should the city council do, you ask, Mr. Wigley? They need to get out of bed with Simon and protect their own city. How? That’s easy: Simon isn’t about to throw Southdale on a truck and move it to another town, so Edina obviously has leverage with them.
Money talks. The counsel needs to estimate the city’s lost sales tax revenue, along with the other Southdale business owner’s losses. Then, they need to present these numbers to Simon and ask how Simon plans to reimburse them. “Cash or check?” If Simon prefers the installment plan, no problem: just add it to Southdale’s property taxes.
Sure, Simon owns the mall and has a right to do as they please within it… but when their atrocious business decision negatively affects the entire city -for years to come- the city not only has the right to intervene, but an absolute responsibility.
This is much bigger than Ralph’s now. Simon made the wrong decision, and at the worst time: The average citizen already has a bitter taste in their mouth from greedy corporations stepping on the “little guy”… and hey- let’s do it during the holidays! Brilliant PR.
Edina may not have a legal right to tell Simon to let Ralph’s stay, but they can certainly make it known that they will recoup any loses from Simon, one way or another.
David,
We just starting discussing the “collateral damage” issue. Glad you brought it up, too. See my comment to Katie above re: the concerns expressed by someone on Facebook about a boycott. How would you respond to her?
While Southdale Center is not exactly the City’s playground/turf, you’re right, the City does have some leverage right now because Simon is seeking economic development assistance… which is why this blog exists in the first place! I don’t yet know any details on those discussions.
As for your point about the city’s lost sales tax revenue from those choosing now to not shop at Southdale over this issue, there would seem to be so many possible factors (recession, new/old stores doing well/poorly, nearby competition, online competition, etc) that it would be next to impossible to come up with a number that could be attributed to the fallout from this issue. Your thoughts?
Griff, you made a valid point- it really would be difficult to put a number on the lost revenue. Perhaps an exact number isn’t necessary; just informing Simon that the city is displeased with the “significant and continuing” loss should suffice as a bargaining tool.
At this point, the city needs to do everything it can to get back the hundreds (thousands?) of shoppers that Simon has alienated. They need to inform Simon that the only way to win them back is to let Ralph’s stay, and that they aren’t comfortable providing assistance to a company that is negatively impacting the city’s bottom line.
As for the collateral damage (which I incorrectly stated earlier hadn’t been mentioned), it is a necessary evil… it’s unfair to the other tenants of Southdale, but sometimes, the only way to get a city’s attention is by hitting them in the pocketbook. This continuing loss of tax dollars should be a huge motivator for Edina; they need to flex some muscle and put this fire out now.
The City does not have the legal authority to get involved in mediating a lease dispute between a property owner and a commercial tenant. That kind of relationship is managed by market forces and the civil courts.
That being said, I can tell you that City Hall is aware of the situation that Ralph’s is facing, and that we will raise the issue with Simon during our discussions with them about future development at the mall.
Thank you, that’s great to know.
Edina doesn’t have to necessarily have to mediate the dispute, but it would be the right thing for the city to help Ralph’s. I don’t know what resources you have at your disposal, but something??? For a business that has been in Edina for that long?
Caerhl, I’ll see if someone from the City of Edina’s Planning Department can chime in here with a response to your question about city resources that could help Ralph’s.
Thanks for confirming that this issue is part of the City’s discussions with Simon, Scott.
Will you have any more updates this week, given that Ralph’s is due to close its doors on Saturday, Dec. 24?
I spoke by phone with Edina City Manager Scott Neal this morning. He’s got more to say about this issue and is considering posting something to his blog about it. If he does, I’ll add a comment here linking to it.
The treatment of Ralph’s by Southdale and Simon Properties goes against human decency. One of the largest commercial property owners in the country treating a loyal small family business so poorly just breaks my heart. I’ve always felt so fortunate to live in such a wonderful place with good values and fairness. Southdale management and Simon are not dealing with Ralph’s in a fair or just manner and without any compassion.
Because of the unfair treatment of Ralph’s I have chosen to no longer shop at Southdale.
I would urge the city of Edina to not give any grant or monetary help to Southdale or Simon.
Building a food court should be Southdale’s expense, no matter what. A business, especially a 55 year old business, should not be responsible for relocating once or TWICE.
If Ralph’s had decided THEY wanted a food court it would be their problem. But this is Southdale’s agenda, and Southdale should cover the cost of what they’re causing.
Kate and Linda, thanks for weighing in. Stay tuned for further developments.
Simon properties has pretty much mismanaged Southdale including the fiasco with the beloved Ralph’s Shoe Repair. The only store in there worth a damn is Apple and they are not dependent on location. Southdale has been going through a slow death ever since Dayton’s decided not to be an anchor store at MOA (if anyone can remember that far back). It would be ludicrous for the city to dump money into Simon properties. If you want a future there, level Southdale and put up a new stadium for the Vikings. That will attract people.
Jeff, what guiding principles do you suggest that the Council adopt that would warrant a subsidy to the Vikings for a new stadium but not a subsidy to the Simon Group for mall redevelopment?
Edina resident Jim Landberg has the featured letter-to-the-editor in the StarTribune today:
Very well written!!
This summer, Simon Property Group gave their CEO a retention bonus of $120 million in stock. SPG can surely handle any renovation of their own properties with their own dollars.
Whatever happens with Ralph’s, Simon Property Group should not get $5 million from the City of Edina for work on southdale. Simon is the largest real estate investment trust in the US. They have a market cap of $37 billion.
Andy, I’ve sent you an email, requesting to know your last name so I can add that to your comment. Our guidelines require it.
Update: Andy’s last name has been added. Thanks, Andy!
Andy, when it comes to negotiations around economic development, I’m guessing that the market cap of the development company and the compensation of the CEO are not really on the radar for public officials.
Their main concern is what’s best for the community. If you read this June blog post by City Manager Scott Neal Does Southdale Mall = Edina?, you’ll see that reflected in his questions with reference to comments by Council member Mary Brindle.
So it’s not “Simon Group wants a handout, should we give it to them?” but more “The success of Southdale Center is important to the economic vibrancy of Edina — ‘their mall is our mall’ — so what kind of help and how much is warranted?”
I have been an Edina resident since 1987 and used to hang out at Southdale as a teenager. I knew the city of Edina was considering giving Southdale a handout last summer and frankly, the mall needs updating. Up until last week, I didn’t really have a strong opinion either way about whether or not the mall received funds from the city, because Southdale has been a part of the Edina community since its inception. But, my opinion has changed in the last week as I have watched how poorly Simon Properties has handled this issue with Ralphs.
If Southdale is asking for my tax dollars to improve the facility, they seemingly want to portray themselves as a vibrant member of this community. However, requiring the last original tenant to fork over an additional $120,000 in order to accommodate the mall’s needs (on top of the $60,000 second mortgage Ralphs is still paying from the last required move) is disingenous to their tenant and this community. And the fact that they have been completely silent in the face of all of this criticism makes me believe that they are hoping it will all just go away so they can get back to leaning on the Edina City Council.
I sent Simon Properties a message via their requested website last week and have not heard back. They have not responded to my post on their Facebook page either. If this is how they are going to treat their own tenants, as well as the members of the community who pay the taxes that they are asking for, I’ll say ‘no thanks.’ I understand the policy of landlord/tenant privacy, but Simon has failed miserably in their damage-control efforts.
I’m not normally a protester-type of person, but this issue has gotten my attention. I finished my Christmas shopping last Friday. Normally, it would have included a trip to Southdale. This year, my money and I went to Eden Prairie Center.
Hi Alison, thanks for chiming in.
I’ve not spoken to them but it’s likely that the members of the City Council are grimacing as they watch this public relations nightmare unfold. It’s David vs. Goliath and the Council can’t publicly put itself in the middle of that struggle.
I think your use of these phrases:
* “giving Southdale a handout”
* “received funds from the city”
* “asking for my tax dollars”
* “leaning on the Edina City Council”
doesn’t accurately convey what’s going on as far as economic development.
As I wrote in my reply to Andy above, it’s not a handout to help the company. It’s what kind of subsidy would benefit the community in the long run. And although I’ve not been in the meetings, it’s probably safe to say that the Council is ‘leaning on’ Simon as much as Simon is ‘leaning on’ the City. Both parties want something from the deal.
I watch this story unfold and I find it sad. There are a lot of people that will also end up losing their jobs due to everyone’s refusal to shop at Southdale. I wish the mall would realize that it would he cheaper for them to pay to move Ralph’s than deal with the wrath of an angry consumer. I know this sounds farfetched, but is there any way the money Southdale is asking for can be given on the premise that part goes to moving this beloved store?
Hi Jenni,
I don’t think your idea is farfetched. See comment #9 above by Edina City Manager Scott Neal:
With all the empty stores at Southdale, I’m surprised they don’t do whatever is necessary to keep the tenants they have.
Kris, I’m guessing Simon sees its new food court as a longer term strategy to retain more tenants and attract new ones. If they lose one but gain many more, that’s likely seen as a winning strategy in the long run.
I am a former Twin Cities resident, having been gone from there for many years. However, my children still live there, and we always shopped at Southdale because of Dayton’s. I remember Ralph’s of course. I have two questions for you Griff.
1. At this point, how can Edina’s economic development with Southdale benefit the community? The community is outraged, no one will shop there, Southdale because of Simon’s mismangement, has lost the respect of the community. From my perspective, it would be throwing good money after bad.
2. It is NOT tax dollars that would come from Edina in such a deal? Where would their money come from then, an investment portfolio for future investors?
Apart from this terrible treatment of a loyal long term tenant, why is the idea of a food court thought to be a good investment anyway? Edina should look at the Galleria whose anchor restaurants draw huge crowds of people to the shopping center. Any development offering a boutique atmosphere would be a far better investment, imho. Food courts are not attractive and are a dime a dozen. Edina needs to think twice before offering an investment incentive.
Marcia,
1. The City of Edina’s negotiations with Simon started early this year. The public uproar about Ralph’s is just a week old. I don’t know for sure but I’m guessing some (all?) members of the Council are wondering, given the outrage, is this a good time to ‘invest’ in Southdale Center?
2. I’m not sure if this is what you’re asking but if the City of Edina decides to not offer a $5M package of loans and grants, Simon (according to this article in the Edina Sun) has evidently indicated that it would opt to not spend an additional $10M on renovations.
As for Simon’s strategy for relocation of a food court, they are going ahead with that regardless. And the City probably doesn’t want to get in the business of advising them on it anyway.
Hope that helps. Let me know if I’ve misunderstood you.
it’s marcia not mark.
My 2nd question was where the money would come from to either loan or grant to Simon Properties the $5M. I thought you indicated earlier it would not be at taxpayer expense. However in your link to Edina Sun (thanks) it looks like it is, even though it will be from increased property tax generated by the “improvements”, if I understand it correctly. According to this article there was hesitation anyway, to use public funds for private enterprise. I hope now, with the Ralph Store story up front…they will reconsider all together. I guess then Simon says (haha – isn’t that an old game?) all Southdale will get is a new paint job. It all seems so unnecessary. Doesn’t Simon have any sense of public commitment if not fair play? Will watch to see what happens.
Marcia, I’ve added your first name to the headers of your comments. Thx!
There’s been plenty of Council member hesitation on this issue since the beginning and there still is. It’s not an easy decision and of course, this issue with Ralph’s makes it even more difficult.
I went to Ralph’s to pick up my leather coat they replaced the zipper on. I meet the owner and he seems like the nicest guy in the World. I moved out to Bloomington in 1953 when 66th Street was a dirt road. (OK, so I am as old as dirt…) My family shopped there as opposed to traveling downtown. What a great concept, an indoor, enclosed Mall in Minnesota. What I find most interesting is back in the 1950′s, the City of Edina rejected the concept. The City of Richfield stood up and thought it would work, hence the tax dollars go to the Richfield School District, District #280 http://www16.co.hennepin.mn.us/pins/addrresult.jsp Today, Edina is involved for whatever reason. Personally, I don’t care what Edina does.
Back 15+ years ago, the Eden Prairie Mall was horrible. You could have shot a cannon through the place any day in December and NOT hit anyone. After the renovation, the place is bustling with business. I use to got to Southdale because of this situation. After today, I have left Southdale for the last time. I can go to the Eden Prairie Mall of Ridgedale. I am also a little surprised the Historical Society has not stepped up to the plate with some kind of support but that’s just me…..
I support Ralph’s and the concept of a hard working guy who wants to work. What an unusual idea in 2011, As Republican as I am, I support those who want to work, pay income taxes and run an honest business. How good is that?
Greg, thanks for the comment and the history. Good to have that from someone as old as dirt.
Hi everyone,
Let’s stop wasting our time on the deaf ears of the Edina city counsel. After dozens of comments on this site, we’ve been honored with ONE reply from them- a milquetoast, generic statement from city manager Scott Neal:
“City Hall is aware of the situation that Ralph’s is facing, and that we will raise the issue with Simon during our discussions with them”.
At first, I was sated by this tiny bone, but then I realized that this gray statement didn’t convey ANY sense of commitment or urgency (as in make-something-happen-by-Dec. 24th, Ralph’s last day). Sadly, it appears that either the council members: A)simply aren’t qualified to deal with this matter B)just don’t grasp the magnitude of the situation, or C)have something to gain by catering to Simon.
Let’s keep boycotting Southdale to send Simon AND Edina city hall a message- we can turn Southdale into Brookdale, if that’s what it takes.
David, I talked with City Manager Scott Neal yesterday and he’s planning to publish a substantive blog post on the issue in the next day or two.
I don’t think you can make the assumption that the lack of comments here by Council members is due to one or more of the 3 reasons you cite. Whenever negotiations like this are occurring, it’s generally better for the parties to keep the public pronouncements to a minimum.
City Manager Scott Neal has a new blog posted titled Southdale and Simon (also reposted here).
Everyone talks about Simon like it is just one thing, however it is made up of many HUMAN BEINGS. Do these people not have hearts? I bet they would not like to lose their job so close to Christmas, let alone a family business. What if it was one of their relatives who was in the same position as Ralph’s? You better believe they’d fight for it and be acting just as we are.
As for the other tenants in Southdale, I hope they’re scared. In this economy, malls are struggling to survive and Simon will do anything to try to “help” Southdale. They did this to Ralph’s for a silly food court, what’s to say they won’t do it to other stores for a lounge area, merry-go-round, child care center, or more bathrooms? To keep a mall running, management needs to continue to add on and improve (just look at the plans for Mall of America’s Phase II). The other tenants in Southdale should get out while they can, before they’re given the boot just like Ralph’s.
I don’t even live near Southdale, I am about 5 miles from Burnsville Center and frequent that mall most. Southdale isn’t doing as well as Burnsville in my opinion! Every time I go to Burnsville Center, it has a pretty steady flow of people in it. Southdale seems to be going downhill, and my cousin who works in Southdale has noticed the lack of customers lately.
Personally, Simon will run this mall into the ground, and the ordeal with Ralph’s is just going to speed it up. They are heartless people, and the other tenants will soon realize it if they have not already. Doesn’t everyone know by now that it helps to keep people happy? I’m very fed up with this and it’s time something should be done.
Oh yeah, and I’m only 19 years old. Right in the middle of high school and college, and my biggest drama is dealing with these corporate idiots. Congrats Simon, my friends and I will take our prime shopping, money spending years elsewhere.
Thanks for taking the time to voice your opinion, Katie.
I don’t think any of the current Southdale tenants spoke to the media during this time, but don’t you think that many of them are happy with the improvements Simon is making to Southdale, eg, the new food court?
Scott Neal’s weak blog post on Ralph’s was more than disappointing. Political mumbo jumbo that did nothing. Edina did nothing and now Ralph’s is moving to Richfield. Well done Richfield! They will have my business and tax dollars. Too little Too Late Edina! Very disappointing that you could do nothing more than wring your hands and say “we shouldn’t get involved”. This does not exactly increase my faith or hope that elected officials will ever do the right thing. Good luck to Ralph’s, they will have my business!
Caerhl, I can understand why you wanted Scott Neal to be more outspoken in his blog post. But can you see why, when the City is in the middle of negotiations, it’s not a good idea to make public statements that could jeopardize those negotiations or at least make them more difficult… and maybe even hurt the city and its citizens in the long run?
Scott wrote above that legally, a City can’t get directly involved in landlord/tenant issues and yet your comment seems to imply that it should have anyway, that it didn’t do the “right thing.”
I know all of this is moot now that Ralph’s is moving to Richfield but it matters to me that you (and others participating and reading along here) don’t become more cynical about your elected officials and city staff.
StarTribune: Southdale’s Ralph’s Shoe Service finds new home in Richfield
KARE 11: Ralph’s Shoe Service finds new life, new home in Richfield